Session Start: Tue Oct 10 11:57:35 2000
*** Now talking in #netsurprise
*** Topic is 'WEBMASTERS ONLY!!!! Welcome to Adult NetSurprise Chatroom!!'
*** Set by SurpriseBot on Tue Oct 10 02:02:16
-SurpriseBot- Welcome - Net Surprise IRC - thud.net channel #netsurprise
<belle> hi
<TDavid> greetings all :)
<belle> how's it going TD
<TDavid> it's that time again for the weekly adultnetsuprise tech chat :) hehe
<TDavid> or at least that is what my flashing screen is telling me :))
*** voyager has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> don't everybody get all excited at once now hehe :))
<TDavid> i used to have a book with 1001 techie jokes
<TDavid> a good book to break the ice in any crowd hehe
<Snikks> TD
<TDavid> yo snikks?
<Snikks> just sayin' hi :)
<TDavid> well hello :)
<Snikks> :)
<TDavid> btw, your invoice went out on Friday. I'd like to see the design you did for SusieS someday though :)
<Snikks> LOLOL
<Snikks> Ok
<TDavid> I'm kind of surprised she never sent me a url lol :)
*** voyager has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
<Snikks> you can see it at http://www.snikksgrafix.com
<TDavid> send me an email with a direct url to it, if you would
<Snikks> on the portfolio page
<TDavid> going to get this workshop stuff done now :)
<Snikks> k
<TDavid> hmmm, might be just me rambling it seems though lol
<TDavid> sending email with php ... 
* Snikks is techie challenged
<TDavid> syntax: mail($recipient, $subject, $body, $headers)
<Snikks> yes I am a victim
<TDavid> well if you want to act excited, then i wont' be lonely snikks lol :)
<Snikks> lol
<TDavid> i guess this is pretty easy to figure out here anyway
*** voyager has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> only one line of code 
<TDavid> syntax: mail($recipient, $subject, $body, $headers)
<TDavid> so if I want to send mail to myself I'd put this code in my page:
<Rowdy> Hiya TDavid
<Snikks> RowdyMan, friend!
<TDavid> mail("tdavid@tdscripts.com", "test subject", "hi TDavid, from the netsuprise chatroom!", "From: tdavid@tdscripts.com\n");
<Rowdy> Hi Snikks :)
<TDavid> hi rowdy :)
<Snikks> :)
<TDavid> new lines or 
*** sharkysr has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> as it is known as \n is used to separate the space in mail
*** voyager has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<TDavid> or to separate headers
<sharkysr> Howdy...
<TDavid> welcome sharkysr :)
<Snikks> sharkysr!
<sharkysr> finally made it to the right room and almost on time.... haha
<TDavid> i was just going through the mail syntax for PHP, pretty straightforward i must say
<TDavid> much more to it in other languages
<TDavid> mail("tdavid@tdscripts.com", "test subject", "hi TDavid, from the netsuprise chatroom!", "From: tdavid@tdscripts.com\n");
*** MrMarylou has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
<sharkysr> Usins a script to do e-mail would explain why I get so many with undeliverable return addresses, right?  Because they can enter anything they want...
<sharkysr> Usins = Using 
<TDavid> yup
<Snikks> what is the advantage of doing this TD?
<TDavid> or they screw up the headers
<sharkysr> Annonimity... would be my guess
<TDavid> sending mail using a script?
<Snikks> yup
<TDavid> Yes, that is the idea. You hide your email address behind a script and don't have it on a page for harvesters to steal
<TDavid> and spam the hell out of you
<Snikks> gotcha
<TDavid> also so you can do a "recommend this page to a friend" type script
<TDavid> and of course run your own opt-in email list
<Snikks> cool
<TDavid> but as I suggested in the course text, there are a couple of "rules" to running an opt-in email list
<sharkysr> Or alot of people use it to actually do spam don't the TD?  Without you knowing where it came from?
<TDavid> 1. you need to allow people to remove by clicking a link inside the email. If they have to return with some message in the body or goto a webpage and do something special that isn't to me a very good opt-in program
<TDavid> that is more likely an "opt-OUT" program
<TDavid> and very offensive to many people on the net
<TDavid> sharkysr, unfortunately too many people abuse a good thing, yes
<sharkysr> I understand that..  it really pisses me off sometimes.
<sharkysr> On the subject of opt-in, if they are getting the e-mail, they are apparently already on the list, right?
<TDavid> some unsolicited mail is purposefully designed so that if you DO try to cancel or get removed from the list you actually get registered as a "good" email address and they spam you harder
<TDavid> so sometimes the best response is to ignore it and hit the delete key
<sharkysr> That is what I've begun doing, and the numbers seem to be decreasing a little.
<TDavid> you can do some research and report the mail to the host and to the sponsors that they are spamming
<TDavid> i've done that a few times if the mail is really misleading and comes "too often"
<sharkysr> I made the mistake of using an automated submission tool for a free site, and now get all sorts of mail from automated mailers.
<TDavid> another thing i find offensive is using the "assuming they allow you to mail" theory. Just because I submit to a tgp or picpost doesn't give the site owner the right to spam me constantly with email. They should clearly state that by submitting a picture or gallery they are being given the right to do this and then I may not submit to them
<TDavid> after all they are getting free content essentially
<TDavid> and then to spam me atop that is really a bit much, I think
<TDavid> now if they have a comment on my submission that isn't spam
<TDavid> i'm sure you folks have seen this practice before
<TDavid> sponsors and content providers who sell your email address without telling you in the TOS is another sleazy practice IMHO
<TDavid> difficult to talk about email without talking about spam these days :)
*** Jaggi has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<TDavid> so if you want to build your own opt-in list. Do it the right way. Make it easy to get on and off and don't send more than once a week and never never never sell or give these email addresses out without addressing in your TOS.
<sharkysr> OK TD, so what can we use this for to make $$$ 
<TDavid> email addresses to people who WANT to be in a list and WANT to be mailed about a specific thing = $$$
<TDavid> an unabused email list is gold
<TDavid> target practice :)
<sharkysr> So we would need to store the e-mail address and other information in a file for use in mass mailings on a regular basis about a specific subject and/or offer..
<TDavid> if you are interested in books, sharkysr, and I keep sending you adult urls you are probably going to get irritated. But if I send you the week's bestsellers to your favorite type of reading, wouldn't you be a bit more interested?
<sharkysr> Yea,, I understand that.
<TDavid> sure, you can go surf them on your own, but the whole idea with email was convenience. If one structures an email program around this people will be receptive. Total open disclosure is the important thing
<sharkysr> need to think outside the box, as they say...
<TDavid> you start hiding the facts behind tiny verbiage on a TOS page that you are selling email addresses and people will not like that much at all
<TDavid> how do you think 95% of the spam you are receiving today is coming to you?
<TDavid> your email was sold or given to or stolen from a place
<TDavid> I'd say that 99% of the time you never realized this was happening until you investigate it
<TDavid> If you sign up for a sponsor, use a special alias address if you have a mail forwarder. For instance if you sign up for amazon use: amazon@yourdomain.com
<TDavid> now if you start receiving email to the amazon@yourdomain.com from other than amazon books you will know that amazon either a) sold or gave away your email or b) your email was stolen somewhere off the amazon site
*** floppy has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> welcome floppy :)
<Rowdy> hi floppy
<floppy> Howdy 
<floppy> :))
<TDavid> rowdy, you have any comments on this, you have been around awhile :)
<sharkysr> Basically you develop the service i.e. weekly best seller list, then spam the world with the offer of the opt-in e-mail list for the service, and develop your clean list from the responses?
<TDavid> no, you develop a website and put your opt-in signup on the website
<TDavid> you don't ever send unsolicited BULK mail ... that's risky business
<Rowdy> ummm... comment in regards to what specifically? :)
<Rowdy> you've covered quite a bit :)
<TDavid> you can contact site owners on an individualized basis about something, but I guarantee if you bulk mail unsolicited you'll regret it
<TDavid> about what im saying about spam in general, rowdy :)
<TDavid> I don't mind mail (and you probably don't either) where the person has CLEARLY been to the site and personalizes things a bit
<Rowdy> concerning webmaster lists ... quickest way to get ignored by me is for me to get 25 identical e-mails from each domain... I'd never recommend a webmaster list as far as my preferance goes
<floppy> I take it we are talking about spam ;))
<Rowdy> Correct TD.... only way to accomplish anything worthwhile with webmasters is the personalized effort
<TDavid> problem with spam is you can see through 99.9% of it
<TDavid> the old "Re: " subject line is the oldest trick in the book
<sharkysr> I wouldn't do that in the first place TD, just curious how you get the initial list of possible e-mails to opt in.  I must have misunderstood what you said earlier.
<TDavid> make it look like they are responding to you
<TDavid> look at the front page to http://www.php-scripts.com/
<TDavid> i have a mail list for people to notify them whenever we release a new php script
<floppy> sharky ya mean how to gather a list of e-mails
<Rowdy> I have 0 tolerance for spam myself ... course I get arpund a 100 a day on a "good" day so that might be part of that :)
<TDavid> i have sent 4 emails out to this list in 10 months
<TDavid> these people know I have not abused them
<TDavid> and the list grows almost every day
<TDavid> and i will only email them when a new php script is released
<TDavid> and i will never sell or give away these email addresses unless i were to sell the entire web sites
<sharkysr> Then a good source for something like that would probably be a website with those kind of offers linked to the exit button on an adult site,  that way you could offer something non-adult to those folks, right?
<TDavid> i would think if you have something timely to offer, a service that would save time, for instance, that would be a good thing to set up a list for
<sharkysr> I'm just looking for a practical use for this that I can relate to
<TDavid> I'm sure Rowdy wants to save time, I want to save time, every webmaster wants to save time I've ever met
*** Electra has joined #netsurprise
<sharkysr> hi Electra
<TDavid> that's what electra and dravyk did with allofem ... speaking of them :)
<floppy> Hi Electra:)
<TDavid> hello electra
<Electra> hi sharkysr....floppy
<Electra> what did we do?:)
<TDavid> they saved webmasters time ... the next logical step might be a list to actually mail updates to webmasters who want to be mailed :)
<sharkysr> That would be a good idea TD...
<TDavid> takes me time to get to a webpage ... but mail i can quickly scan :) and if you embed a few ads in those emails, well no problem :)
<Rowdy> Of course TD :)
<Rowdy> Hi Electra
<Electra> Hi Rowdy
<sharkysr> Electra, are you taking notes.... haha
<TDavid> so sharkysr, does that answer make sense? :)
<floppy> kinda like netsuprise list on icq so you know 20 minutes before a live event 
<Electra> Of course not..we have our own programmers lol
<sharkysr> Yep.  Thank you.. now it is clear as mud...   J/K..  I understand.
<Electra> I do the mindless work..not programming
<TDavid> don't sell yourself short, electra :)
<Electra> TDavid..I don't..but I don't mind if others do.....hehehe
<TDavid> you do marketing which IMHO is every bit as important as the guts of a site :)
<TDavid> more important, actually
<Rowdy> marketing is a pain :)
<Electra> So whats the tech  topic TD?
* floppy gives Electra a lot of credit for the pr work that tedius
<TDavid> the tech topic is sending email using php :)
<Electra> I would have been here earlier but it took me half an hour to order a simple piece fo equipment online..its been that bad today for me
<TDavid> we were talking about spam and got off on opt-in lists
<TDavid> sharkysr was asking what a good list might be to start and I was saying probably something that saved webmasters time
<Electra> ok
<sharkysr> Electra I was referring to the next logical step for allofem..
<Electra> That may already have been wtitten in..not sure yet..its been so customised not sure what is there yet
<TDavid> that would be cool, none of my business of course, electra if you guys did offer to send out those board updates once a day
<sharkysr> If you have an opt-in e-mail of the overview, I'll sign up for it..
*** toson has joined #netsurprise
<sharkysr> Hiya toson..
<toson> hey there
<Electra> I'll ask Raffi
<TDavid> hi toson :)
<toson> Hi TD...
<Electra> I have seen more programming this past month than I could possibly understand in a lifetime
<floppy> afternoon Toson:)
<toson> hi Floppy
<Rowdy> hi toson
<Electra> I honestly don't know how you do all this stuff TD..it so complex
<toson>  gave up on understanding Electra, now, I just sort of nod my head in agreement, and let the techies talk..<G>...
<TDavid> well maybe at one of the shows my wife and i can buy you lunch and we'll see if we can't demystify things for you :)
<Electra> I used to do that..then I found out I had to run the programs lol
<toson> hehehehe
<TDavid> it is easier than it looks ... kind of like the game, Craps
<toson> I do not know craps either... poker..maybe a little...;)
<toson> LOL
<TDavid> i was just writing a beginners guide to craps for Klixxx, and that game is threatening and confusing to a lot of people, but it is actually a fairly simplistic game
<Electra> I once made a very simnple program about a cockroach..and what it did and didn't do when it came out to look for food lol
<toson> I need to create a program that can just make the coffee perk without me in the morning..;)
<TDavid> it just looks confusing with all the people standing around and the chips flying and the scary looking pitboss nearby and the guy with the hooked stick watching on
<Electra> It was like...comes out of hole...if does this..this happens..if dos that..that happens..if third force..it does this hehehe it was fun to do 
<toson> hang on.. children trying to murder each other
<TDavid> i need to write a hooked stick stickman horror story one of these days hehe ... if you crap out you die ... hehe
<Electra> TD..you are probably idea to write murder mysteries..lots of logical deduction needed:)
<Electra> IDEAL
<toson> hhehehehe
<Rowdy> well all ... need to run WillyB back to his place... ya'all have a good one!
<TDavid> i loved the twilight zones because of the hook ending ... you lead them down one corridor and whammo you slam them with the twist ending 
<Rowdy> c'yas :)
<toson> I just adore having two girls 2 1/2 years apart from each other..;)
<TDavid> take care, Rowdy! thanks for hanging with us, mon :)
*** Rowdy has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<Electra> A lot of those were obvious though
<toson> bye Rowdy
<TDavid> well i'll agree with you there, but some weren't ... those were the ones I liked. Remember, "To Serve Man"?
<Electra> Yes...that was on recently on cable 
<Electra> That was one of the better ones I think
<TDavid> most fiction writing is deducing how people will act, actually. You fool the writer into a false sense of security about the evil folks and you throw in your occasional unpredictable tragedy
<Electra> Also..might have been Outer Limits..the one with Agnes Moorehead where she was an amazon woman and a us spacecraft landed in her attic
* toson does not watch TV at all...;)
<TDavid> boy, im not talking tech anymore am I? oh well lol
<toson> hehehe
<Electra> well you are and you aren't..its logical deduction in both cases
<TDavid> nothing more boring than a one-dimensional techie hehe
<TDavid> you know what's worse than death?
<Electra> you were pointing out logical deduction:)
<TDavid> an evening with a life insurance salesman - woody allen
<Electra> WHAT?
<sharkysr> Can I ask an ummmm  "Programming Question" in here?
<Electra> hahahaah
<TDavid> shoot sharkysr :)
<toson> ouch...but at least the man can make fun of himself..;)
<toson> heck no Sharkysr... what type of chat do you think this is???   LOL
<TDavid> actually electra did point out a great analogy here. Programming is logical action, lots of logical action
<sharkysr> It is about if... elseif... else statements.  I'll cut and paste in 3-4 lines to show you
<TDavid> ok
<sharkysr> }else{
<sharkysr> 	for ($c = 0; $c< 3; $c++){
<sharkysr> 			
<sharkysr> 		if(!ereg("^(.+)@(.+)\\.(.+)$", $recipient[$c])){
<sharkysr> 			print("<p> The e-mail address for recipient #" . (($c)+1) . " does not appear to be in the correct format.<br>\n
<sharkysr> How much programming can you put within the else{   }
*** LaughingEyes has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
* toson is an Aquarius... anything but logical
<TDavid> an entire program can be contained within an else
<TDavid> two web pages could be contained in an if/else
<TDavid> if true - show webpage one, if false show webpage 2
<sharkysr> As long as it is all contained between the {   } 
<TDavid> correct
<sharkysr> OK.
<sharkysr> That is all I needed to know.
<Electra> Its mathmatical really isn't it
<sharkysr> Math and Logic
<toson> I prefer English Lit..;)
<Electra> Maybe thats why you don't see a lot of women doing programming
<sharkysr> with those two things, you can do anything...
<TDavid> at the very core it is simply zeroes and ones, trues and falses
<sharkysr> the logic part right Electra??
<Electra> whats the next step after PHP?
<sharkysr> Fame and Fortune...
<Electra> lol
<sharkysr> If it were only so easy... LOL
<TDavid> if sharkysr is in this room (true) and he is asking a question (true) then we need to answer the question (true/false) if we dont' answer the question (false) he might think we ignored him, if we answer him (true) he might wish we ignored him :))
<Electra> Seems there is always a new thing coming out
<TDavid> php will be the rage for awhile until more bandwith comes out
<TDavid> then something more multimedia cross serverside/clientside will win out
<TDavid> when we all have DSL or better connection there will be something better needed
<TDavid> maybe some kind of flash/shockwave/php/SQL combo
<sharkysr> Why is that TD??  Will PHP appear to be slow?
<TDavid> php is server side, this IRC is client side/server side, an application like this COULD be done in PHP using JavaScript but it would be slow
<TDavid> the bandwith just isn't out there to put the burden on the client side and only use the security and data storage for the server side in a mass society application (yet)
<TDavid> but it will be someday
<TDavid> java TRIES to do this ... but it fails in being such a buggy application most of the time
<sharkysr> Will PHP be replaced then?  Or just something else added, and PHP still functional?
<TDavid> boy i better ask John Kane for that ... hehe
<TDavid> i'm guessing that php will be obsoleted like perl will be someday
<sharkysr> You mean I won't ever be able to quit studying....;0((
<TDavid> C will hang until something better comes along. Assembler will hang of course. Been nearly 30 years and nobody has built a better mousetrap
<TDavid> but someday somebody will
<TDavid> someday somebody will figure out how to harness the power of binary coding without having to know all the 1s and 0s
<TDavid> Assembler even too fast for most processors ... they use it for modem drivers and things and some games
<TDavid> nope sharkysr, studying NEVER ends, my friend :)
<sharkysr> Hey TD, I can't believe my first script this week was so close to being right for a change...
<TDavid> you are doing very good :)
<sharkysr> pivotal word being "close"
<TDavid> rarely will you write flawless code the first time out ... every programmer I've ever known has to debug constantly
<sharkysr> I'm working on the advanced lesson, because I don't want Sparhawk feeling "lonely" this week...haha
<TDavid> you spend in reality maybe 10-20% of time writing code and 80-90% debugging it
<sharkysr> Yea, I won't argue that.
<TDavid> on the best day maybe you spend 40-50% 
<TDavid> i like days like that :)
<sharkysr> I spend alot of time correcting minor oversights, before I ever submit the first version.
<sharkysr> They aren't so minor to the parser...
<TDavid> and the bigger the code gets ... the more challenging it gets to change significant things, if you dont' have a good design to start out with
<TDavid> it's like pulling out the kitchen and putting it where the bedroom is
<TDavid> unfortunately sometimes you don't realize the kitchen belongs where the bedroom is until after you've drywalled and textured the house!
*** MrMarylou has joined #netsurprise
<sharkysr> I can do that for you TD, if you want.... I used to be a general contractor.
*** Electra has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<TDavid> well i guess this brings this week's tech chat to a close unless anybody has any other questions on email and php :)
* floppy thinks any programming language would be a lot easier with a list of what does that mean and do hehe
<TDavid> well that's the documentation manual, floppy, but those manuals are greek to even most programmers
<belle> is there a book.. php for dummies?
<TDavid> it's because those are often written by the folks who designed the parser or language itself and they don't speak from this planet most of the time
<TDavid> i bet there is, belle :)
<belle> hehe, i think even that would be too advanced for me
<floppy> funny part of any tutorials i cam across though is not all explain all aspects of the language
<TDavid> have you checked out the course material i wrote?
<belle> a little.. i'm timid and afraid
<floppy> in depth like your  tutorials on it in netsuprise
<TDavid> knowing "all aspects" of any language is not really a necessity floppy
<TDavid> don't be, belle :) I'll help you
<belle> :) I know you will TD, thanks
<floppy> it like fixing a car
<floppy> or rebuilding the motor 
<belle> it is great that you guys take the time to give these lessons
<TDavid> yeah, well show me a mechanic who knows how to fix every part on a car 
<floppy> ya cn repair things 
<belle> i love the graphic tutorials too
<floppy> but when ya know how the mechanics of it work it a lot easier
*** _Splitz_ has joined #netsurprise
<belle> Thanks TD :)
<_Splitz_> julloooo
<TDavid> most mechanics are specialists, so are programmers
<TDavid> what's up, Splitz
<_Splitz_> Not much, whassup with you?
<floppy> hehe just an expression in relation to learning programming 
<floppy> or anything for that matter
<floppy> :00
<sharkysr> See you in ScriptSchool TD
<sharkysr> Bye All....;0))
<floppy> when ya know how it works inside it a lot easier to apply 
<TDavid> cya sharkysr
<floppy> cya sharkysdr
*** sharkysr has left #netsurprise
<TDavid> that will bring this to an official close, if you'd like to talk more stop by script school some time.
<TDavid> your welcome, Belle, I do enjoy helping people when I can
<floppy> cya all later 
<floppy> thanks
<TDavid> I certainly dont' have all the answers, but if i have some of them that help I don't mind sharing :)
*** floppy has left #netsurprise
Session Close: Tue Oct 10 13:18:58 2000