Session Start: Tue Oct 24 12:03:23 2000
*** Now talking in #netsurprise
*** Topic is 'WEBMASTERS ONLY!!!! Welcome to the Adult NetSurprise Chatroom!'
*** Set by SurpriseBot on Sun Oct 22 23:49:40
-SurpriseBot- Welcome - Net Surprise IRC - thud.net channel #netsurprise
*** CrEaToR changes topic to 'Right Now: Tech Chat with TDavid! Ask Questions about Programming and the PHP Course! Welcome to the Adult Netsurprise Chatroom!'
*** CrEaToR sets mode: +o TDavid
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<pablo> hello
<TDavid> hello pablo
<CrEaToR> hiya TD
<pablo> Is mIRC working properly for everyone. Mine wont connect
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<CrEaToR> you might have the wrong port settings
<TDavid> hi creator, why not try thud.net or irc.webmasterlive.com pablo
<JP|hardcorebox> Hi techies :-)
<pablo> let me look, I think i'm ok
<TDavid> how goes it JP? :)
<CrEaToR> hiya JP
<JP|hardcorebox> doing good :-) even better after booking for chicago this weekend :-) kinda short decision to go for it
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<JP|hardcorebox> do any of you have experience with video streaming and what it takes on a linux server ?
<TDavid> i think you will have a great time networking with the folks there :)
<pablo> can't connect to the server www.thud.net (6667)
<TDavid> then try irc.webmasterlive.com, pablo
<pablo> ok
<JP|hardcorebox> yes, was hard to say no with all the people on the guest list. so we go there and not just to vegas next month
<TDavid> video streaming on a linux server ... boy that sounds like fun
<JP|hardcorebox> i got a dedicated linux box now but figured that none of that MS media stuff runs on linux. and the host said on the other hand using an NT server i could not run a paysite without .htaccess and all those nice perl scripts
<TDavid> i'm no expert there, but i think video streaming is one area where MS might have *nix licked
<JP|hardcorebox> i only found real so far.....free up to 20 streams....but after 20+ streams you need a license and that is WAY expensive
<TDavid> one of the FEW areas, i might add :)
<TDavid> REAL sucks ass, stay away from it, IMHO
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<TDavid> welcome toson :)
<JP|hardcorebox> i have no glue from linux though so far. only run NT machines here.
<JP|hardcorebox> Hey Toson
<toson> hey there everyone
<CrEaToR> hiya toson
<TDavid> well if you already NT than use that for your video/audio streaming, you'll like the results better I think
<TDavid> talk to doKK in Chicago, he'll be able to offer you some advice on that stuff. He knows a ton about that stuff
<pablo> hummmmm
<pablo> oh well
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<JP|hardcorebox> the NT is at home with a 768k DSL line. but i need it for streaming of multiple live and video streams for the membersite. i doubt DSL can handle that bandwidth
<JP|hardcorebox> cool. I hope Dokk will make it to Chicago
<TDavid> is it 768 up and down?
<TDavid> or just down?
<TDavid> a lot of DSL just have 128 UP
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<TDavid> which in that case a Dual ISDN 128k would be just as good for upstream
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<TDavid> welcome sharkysr :)
<JP|hardcorebox> 768k xDSL both ways.
<JP|hardcorebox> 20 static IPs
<sharkysr> Howdy TD... and JP and everyone else.   Did you miss me TD?
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<TDavid> only have a full t1, you won't be able to get more than 30-35 people on their with audio and video at any decent frame rate ... just from a pure mathematics standpoint I'm guessing
<Vivian_HardcoreBox> hi guys
<CrEaToR> hiya Vivian, sharkysr
<Vivian_HardcoreBox> and girl
<Vivian_HardcoreBox> s
<TDavid> er half of a full t1 that is :)
<TDavid> sharkysr, of course! hehe :)
<sharkysr> Hey Creator
<TDavid> right about now I am missing anyone that can put together furniture hehe
<TDavid> those metal desks weigh a ton
<sharkysr> Are you moving in to the new office????
<TDavid> yeah finally :)
<TDavid> has everybody seen this week's php course material? http://www.adultnetsurprise.com/learning_center/php/php_week_8.html
<sharkysr> Great...  That means that by the weekend, you'll be ready for a break, and show up in Chicago, right TD????....;<))
<sharkysr> I saw it, but haven't had time to do anything more than read it
<TDavid> well what were your thoughts in reading it?
<sharkysr> Honestly I thought it looked like it wouldn't be too difficult to do,  but need to read it again to make sure.. haha
<sharkysr> brb, gotta put the dog out.
<TDavid> i think most everyone here is familiar with meta tags and the HTML <head> tags
<JP|hardcorebox> hey SharkySr
<TDavid> and probably a few of you have messed around with JavaScript that required you to cut and paste code within those <HEAD> tags
<TDavid> there is something known as "MIME" which is what controls what type of content is rendered ... in most cases it is text/html ... which is what we are all used to seeing on a webpage
<TDavid> but it can also be graphics like: Content-type: image/jpeg
<TDavid> that would return a .jpg image to the browser
<TDavid> or at least set it up to display that
<TDavid> this is one way banner rotators will return images through an <IMG SRC> tag
<TDavid> the img src tag calls a script which ultimately returns a header containing a graphic
<sharkysr> That doesn't mean that text/html can't be displayed, right TD?
<TDavid> text/html can't be displayed in an img src tag, no
<TDavid> unless the image contains text of course :)
<TDavid> a lot of the internet is made up of headers and MIME. it is the coded way that "things" (for lack of a better word) are sent around. Email for instance is sent through headers
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<TDavid> email attachments are mime-encoded
<CrEaToR> hiya Wolfe
<sharkysr> I'm sorry I didn't ask that right.   The MIME being set as anything other than text/html, wouldn't prevent text/html code from being processed, would it?
<TDavid> yes it would
<Wolfe> hey creator
<TDavid> if you set the mime to return an image and then tried to print html you'd lock up your browser most likely, as the binary code would not be present
<sharkysr> OK, then I am not clear on what MIME represents.  I thought it was that first line at the top of the page that stated the intent of the page.  I'm off on that, right?
<TDavid> you can try a little experiment by opening a graphic and then using the fpassthru() function
<TDavid> to print to the browser
<TDavid> you'll see the binary representaion of the data, it looks like a foreign language hehe
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<TDavid> MIME stands for something like Multi information mail exchange ... or something like that. I am not sure of the exact name
<sharkysr> You know which line I was talking about?
<sharkysr> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<TDavid> it is the way that different file types are encoded and sent across the web
<sharkysr> that is what I thought was the mime statement
<TDavid> no that's a comment of the language of the page
<TDavid> if you remove that the page will still be rendered fine
<sharkysr> Multi-purpose Internet Mail Extensions  =  MIME
<TDavid> yeah, that's it :)
<sharkysr> I love reference manuals....  heh
<sharkysr> OK, so I've been under this total misconceptions all this time. Now I need to learn what MIME really is, and where you see it or use it.
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<TDavid> <Meta http-equiv="Content-Script-Type" Content="text/javascript">
<TDavid> is another way of doing ... <script language="JavaScript">
<TDavid> the long way, actually
<TDavid> technically however, it is the CORRECT way to set a page. Browsers will compensate for incorrect html though
<TDavid> this is why some pages in Netscape don't work and do work in IE and vice versa
<TDavid> it is the level of "help" that the browser provide when the html code is formatted correctly
<TDavid> this is according to the HTML 4 specifications, btw
<TDavid> now using the header() function we can emulate some of the same things you can already do with the meta tags :)
<TDavid> like redirection to another page
<TDavid> using a meta refresh we can do this
<sharkysr> I did that yesterday
<sharkysr> It is slick as hell.
<TDavid> you put a snippet of code in the <HEAD> section of your html document and after so many seconds it will redirect to a different page
<TDavid> you can avoid the entire page being rendered using the header() function in PHP
<TDavid> and you can do it OPTIONALLY on a page, which is handy
<TDavid> the key is after you print HTML you cannot manipulate headers
<TDavid> on the same page
<TDavid> you can call a script on another page and do header manipulation, but on that same page you cannot
<sharkysr> I've got a site with 430 pics, each on separate html pages, and 18 galleries .  Just put a few lines of PHP before the html on the pages, and it checked to make sure that the referring page was on the domain, and if not, it redirects it to the index page.
<TDavid> if you try to print html (including white space) before manipulating the headers, you will get a parse error
<TDavid> yes, sharkysr, that is a great way to do it :)
<sharkysr> You can't even tell that you have been redirected
<TDavid> and it is better than using JavaScript because it is a server-side mechanism not a client side one
<sharkysr> and it doesn't show up in the code on the page when you view  source
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<TDavid> yup :)
<john> Hi TD!
<TDavid> hi john
<sharkysr> Now if I could just figure out how to make it protect the .jpg's at the same time, I wouldn't need the .htaccess any more
<TDavid> you can do that using headers :)
<sharkysr> OK, Teach me Teach..
<TDavid> think about the problem with images ... they are usually in the public directory, right?
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<sharkysr> yea
<TDavid> so move your images out of the public directory and put them in the NON-public area
<sharkysr> hi Electra
<Electra> Hi SharkySr
<TDavid> now the only person that can get to it is someone with FTP access or a script
<sharkysr> how do you do that
<john> E*l*e*c*t*r*a* !!!!!!!!!
<TDavid> you open the image up and you read it into a page using headers
<Electra> John!!!!!
<john> lol....thats neat
<TDavid> it is like 4 lines of code
<sharkysr> Seems like you would create some logistics problems, if you have several hundred pics?  Or am I confused?
<TDavid> <? $image = fopen($image, "r"); header("Content-type: image/jpeg"); fpassthru($image); fclose($image); ?>
<TDavid> <? $image = fopen($in_image, "r"); header("Content-type: image/jpeg"); fpassthru($image); fclose($image); ?>
<TDavid> that is the code necessary to take $in_image from a non public directory and return it through a header to an <IMG SRC tag
<TDavid> you pass the image name through a variable to the script instead of calling the image directly
<TDavid> <img src="electra.jpg" border="0">   <--- >  <img src="myscript.php?electra.jpg" border="0">
<TDavid> so in a way, yes, sharkysr it would require you to modify all your links, but you could do a search and replace function to do most of that with minimul work
<sharkysr> OK, I've apparently got a mental block here (which I experience alot lately).  How would you use that in an actual site? where you have a gallery of 30 thumbs, all connected to full size pics?
<TDavid> and it would be 1000 times more secure than htaccess
<TDavid> because they can't link what isn't public
<Electra> Thats scary..I actually understand some of that !:(
<sharkysr> That is sort of scary Electra.... oops, sorry.
<TDavid> i just showed you sharkysr, you change every IMG SRC tag to call the image from a non public place, including the thumbs if you want those locked down
<TDavid> probably only practical for full size images, but you could do thumbs as well
<TDavid> it is a bit of a hit to your server though, because for every image you are calling the script
<TDavid> so if you have 30 images you are calling a script 30 times
<TDavid> so that is something to keep in mind
<sharkysr> I'm still missing something somewhere.   Guess I just need to see it in use.
<TDavid> however, htaccess essentially does the same thing ... it allows/denies at the source of every picture during a mod_rewrite
<TDavid> let me get you a url to see it in use ... just a sec
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<TDavid> http://www.dirtycinema.com/tdpicofday/template.html
<TDavid> there is an example
<sharkysr> Howdy TW
<TDavid> hi tw :)
<TimeWalker> HI :)
<Electra> Hi TW
<TDavid> in this case im passing a category off to a script in order to return an image: pd.phtml?in=amateurs
<TDavid> fundamentally the principle works the same way though
<sharkysr> So there is no way I could access that pic through any other means?
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<TDavid> no, the source of that picture is located outside a public directory
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<TDavid> you can't link what has no valid public directory path
<TDavid> and the surfer will only see the script, not the path to the actual image nor the name
<TDavid> another thing that comes up now and again with people is caching pages
<TDavid> you can use the header() function to force pages not to cache as well
<sharkysr> Why would you not want them to cache a page?
<TDavid> header(Cache-Control: no-cache, must-revalidate");
<TDavid> well a dynamic pages where content would change with almost every visitor is one good example
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<TDavid> header(Cache-Control: no-cache, must-revalidate"); // http/1.1 protocol
<TimeWalker> and framed content is another
<TDavid> header(Pragma: no-cache"); // http/1.0 protocol
<TDavid> next week we'll be exploring cookies and they are also done during the header phase, so thus this whole header thing is somewhat important to grasp first
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<TimeWalker> if you let a proxy cache( aol)  cache a frame url you get all sorts of wierd screwed up things being shown
<TDavid> page caching can become a confusing problem sometimes when dealing with scripting issues. That and of course browser compatibility
<TDavid> all issues, unfortunately, that you have to deal with during the design of a program
<TDavid> if everyone used the same computer with the same browser with the same isp and the same browser settings there would be no issue, but ... of course this will never be a reality
<TimeWalker> I started adding pragma and no-cache meta info and it solved a lot of issues with our great credit card spending audience aol :)
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<TDavid> that's a great point, tw :)
<WM009> hey everyone
<sharkysr> hi WM009
<TimeWalker> aol is notorious for badly configured caches
<WM009> hi
<TimeWalker> they send you into the cache for info before sending you out onto the net for " live" info
<sharkysr> so the no cache eliminates that step with aol?
<TDavid> aol wants to keep all their surfers internal, they set up their system to be anti-web, unfortunately
<WM009> whats a good adult free host?
<TimeWalker> if they are told no dont cache it...................or no not allowed.........
<TDavid> at least it was that way when we were with aol 2 years ago, maybe it is different now
<TimeWalker> no different td :(
<TDavid> bummer
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<TDavid> well im going to head back to the furniture moving unless anybody else has any questions about headers and redirecting visitors?
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<TimeWalker> if your doing se work... you use pragma a lot
<sharkysr> What exactly is pragma???
<TimeWalker> it's a cache directive
<TimeWalker> it used to be the name of a program
<sharkysr> OK
<WM009> *i just experienced a server split* whats a good free adult host?
<TDavid> i was thinking pragma was was when your mother was pregnant :)
<TimeWalker> it got adopted  and stuck
<sharkysr> ROFLMAO TD
<TimeWalker> lol td
<TDavid> sharkysr, i hope we'll get a live update from the billiards room on Friday from you folks
<TimeWalker> look at it this way guys.. it's one line and worth the trouble
<TDavid> on the script school radio show
<sharkysr> Yea, that is the plan according to toson.
<TDavid> you have the number to tell us who the minnesota fats of webmasters is?
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<_Splitz_> booya
<sharkysr> Hopefully I won't be out of the contest by then, yet...
<TDavid> or webmistress that is :)
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<TDavid> hey willyB :)
* WillyB is late
<TDavid> i am turning off the archive now
<WillyB> Hi ya TDavid :)
* TDavid kills the log
<TDavid> sorry to say hi and bye but i'm back to furniture moving :)
<WillyB> The last thing in there is willyb saying I;m late
<TDavid> i hope to see those that arent' in chicago at the radio show this Friday ... take care all!
<WillyB> Sorry I was late.. I got tied up :(
<WillyB> later
<WillyB> see ya
<sharkysr> You are leaving us TD?
<TDavid> yup, ate a sandwich and typed at the same time, back to the salt mines hehe
* TimeWalker tells WB's gf not to tie him up during scriptschool
Session Close: Tue Oct 24 13:07:44 2000