Session Start: Tue Oct 31 12:05:05 2000
*** Now talking in #netsurprise
*** Topic is 'Right Now: Tech Chat with TDavid! Ask Questions about Programming and the PHP Course! Welcome to the Adult Netsurprise Chatroom!'
*** Set by CrEaToR on Tue Oct 31 12:25:42
-SurpriseBot- Welcome - Net Surprise IRC - thud.net channel #netsurprise
<CrEaToR> okay...I try to set the topic usually a few mins before it starts anyways...that way people don't come in here and think nothings going on...then leave
*** CrEaToR sets mode: +o TD-phone
<WillyB> np - just letting ya know ;)
<WillyB> Hi TDPhone
<CrEaToR> =) ty
*** TD-phone is now known as TDavid
<TDavid> hello all :)
<CrEaToR> hiya TD
<WillyB> hello Master
<TDavid> sorry im a bit late hehe
*** LaughingEyes has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<WillyB> np TD.. I was about an hour late last friday :(
<TDavid> i need to set a "cookie" to remind me where to be hehe
<TDavid> lemme boot up the url for this week's php course info ...
<WillyB> hehehe
<TDavid> http://www.adultnetsurprise.com/learning_center/php/php_week_9.html
<TDavid> there we go :)
<TDavid> you got that cookies stuff down, willyB? :)
<WillyB> yes I think so..  I haven't tried it but I did read it a few times..  it's been a busy weekend
<TDavid> hmmmm, the bbs isn't linked, i just noticed that
<TDavid> http://adultnetsurprise.com/cgi-bin/help_board/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Week+9&number=30&DaysPrune=100&LastLogin=
<TDavid> so there is link to week 9 forum
<TDavid> yeah no doubt on the weekend being busy
<TDavid> cookies cookies, where to start ... i guess a discussion of what you can't do with cookies is worthwhile
<TDavid> 1. cookies cannot contain viruses or malicious information that will hurt your computer
<TDavid> still some surfers and even a few webmasters who believe the opposite of this
<TDavid> 2. only the domain/ip setting the cookie may retrieve the cookie.
<TDavid> so cookies set through a script from tdscripts.com cannot be retrieved by scriptschool.com and vice versa
<WillyB> I understand all of the above... I'm with ya so far :)
*** Jaggi has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> okies
<Jaggi> hi
<WillyB> hi Jaggi
<TDavid> 3. cookies are never permanent, they must expire at some point in the future
<aragorn> anyone ever hear of a 'RIP ATTEMPT' on port 520??
<TDavid> although cookies can be set into the future as far as the year 2038
*** tia has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> so they might as well be deemed permanent
<CrEaToR> hiya tia
<tia> hi Creator, everyone :)
<WillyB> hi tia
<TDavid> 4. cookies can (but should not) be relied on as a sole way of tracking information
*** Jamil has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> reason being that they can be disabled in browsers in like three mouseclicks
<WillyB> but the cookie gets reset everytime the surfer goes back, right, if tney even allow them to be set
<TDavid> and because of rule #1 primarily 
<WillyB> tney=they
<TDavid> some surfers are paranoid about "being tracked"
<TDavid> no they don't necessarily get reset
*** CrEaToR changes topic to 'Right Now: Tech Chat with TDavid! Ask Questions about Programming and the PHP Course! Please, only topic related questions. Welcome to the Adult Netsurprise Chatroom!'
<Jamil> Salut Tia, comment ça va?
<TDavid> i like to use cookies to make some things easier for surfers, but not use them to rely on for anything too serious if at all possible
<TDavid> like prefilling login information for instance
<TDavid> or remembering user settings
<Jamil> Salut Jaggi, comment ça va?
<tia> we're in a workshop Jamil
<WillyB> ok, I guess I was just looking at the number of times you have visited cookie that gets reset
*** Annieb has joined #netsurprise
<CrEaToR> hi AnnieB
<TDavid> in some scripts you will reset them, yes
<Jamil> Salut WillyB, comment ça va?
<Annieb> Hi CrEaToR :)
*** Jamil was kicked by TDavid (asta la vista, Jamil)
<WillyB> hi jamil
<TDavid> aragorn we can deal with that question in here if you'd like
<aragorn> sure sorry :>
*** sharkysr has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> no need to be sorry :)
<CrEaToR> hiya sharkysr
*** MissGwendolyn has joined #netsurprise
*** SurpriseBot sets mode: +o MissGwendolyn
<aragorn> just wondering if you can use the count function with any of the ENV vars in order to tally up the clicks
<MissGwendolyn> Hello =)
<CrEaToR> hi MissGwen =)
<sharkysr> Hey Creator.  Hey TD, did you miss me...  LOL
<sharkysr> didn't know for sure that I'd make it today, still trying to catch up from the weekend.
<TDavid> the count() function is for tallying the size of an array
<TDavid> i spose you could create your own count_clicks() function to do something creative like that
<aragorn> ic 
<WillyB> hi sharkysr, missgwen :)
<TDavid> maybe it would check the $HTTP_REFERER against a db entry or flat file log and then increment based on a match or create a new based on it
<TDavid> or you could check a COOKIE and increment from there too
<sharkysr> Hey WillyB
<aragorn> hrm , ok
<TDavid> hi sharkysr :)
<TDavid> It is far too easy for the surfer to ignore cookies, disallow them, or delete them from their personal computer so for any important type of data tracking this renders cookies grossly ineffective.
<sharkysr> I'm not up to speed yet TD, but will do my best to be caught up by Friday.  Thanks for the sponsorship in Chicago.  It was greatly appreciated.
<TDavid> i heard it was a very good show, good job mon :)
<TDavid> if you want to see the impact of having no cookies sometime go delete all your cookies out of the cookies directory and then revisit some of your favorite sites
<sharkysr> It turned out better then most expected, including me.  But it was due to the sponsors participation, and the great webmasters that attended
<sharkysr> I made that mistake once TD.   Damn I couldn't find anything.
<TDavid> you'll see all kinds of user-settings are no longer prefilled or "remembered", thus the beauty of cookies
<aragorn> so you can't just say $HTTP_REFERER ='s $whatever , and count the number of times $whatever happens?  Or like you said dump that info to a flat file and just count that.  I hope this makes a bit of sense :)
<TDavid> cookies were designed to help preserve "state" but they are flawed in that the client can control their existance
<TDavid> they work good for transactional or session setting type things IF the client doesn't deny the use of them
<TDavid> you can set $HTTP_REFERER to a value, yes
<TDavid> but you have to store the information about the "state" of prior information somewhere
<aragorn> right, sounds good
<TDavid> web pages are static and have no state inherently. It is the greatest downfall of the net from a programming perspective
<sharkysr> TD, sorry to pop in and run, but gotta get to the bank before it closes at 3.  The Kong account is being closed today, and need to pick up the check to send to carol. So I'll talk to you later, OK?
<TDavid> ok mon, talk to you soon thank you for stopping by :)
*** gavster_BRB has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> this is why java and javascipt have gained interest because they have inherent state built into them
*** sharkysr has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<gavster_BRB> What's going on in here?
<TDavid> you can't really design a very good chess game for instance on a single page using PHP
<TDavid> because you'd need to somehow store each move and refresh the page each time
<WillyB> Tech Chat gavster
<gavster_BRB> Really?  Cool
<WillyB> right TD
<TDavid> that's why you haven't seen a whole lot of CGI games created ... because of the lack of state
<TDavid> so netscape came along and said, boy we wish we had "session" support and created cookies
<TDavid> and then IE offered support for them after they caught on
<TDavid> some browsers exist which don't offer cookie support at all, and in fact you can make your own browser using visual basic and not include cookie support fairly easily
<gavster_BRB> Well technically speaking,couldn't you keep your state in a temp db table?  Although that could get server intensive pretty quick . . . .
<TDavid> you could make a browser that didn't have cookie or javascript support and surf websites wearing a virtual condom hehe
<TDavid> php 4.0 has support for sessions, but essentially gavster that is how it is done, yes
<TDavid> the point is instead of being stored in ram it involves I/O which is costly
<gavster_BRB> So what's your opinion on PHP4 with the Zend Optimizer vs. without, Tdavid?
<TDavid> depends on what you are trying to do
<TDavid> every project has different needs and different needs require different tools
<gavster_BRB> Ok, but I'm just wondering in general, best to have the Zend Optimizer just in case?  Or only on projects where you think it would be necessary?
<TDavid> it really depends on what the program is doing ... would the optimizer enhance the program or would it be extra overhead and not really provide a significant performance boost
<gavster_BRB> I gotcha - I was unaware that the optimizer represented extra overhead - my bad. . .   =0(
*** Annieb has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<TDavid> well personally i think that any fat in any situation needs to be analyzed. Zend swears up and down that the optimizer is the greatest thing since sliced bread but logic tells me that any extra subroutine no matter how well optimized is still an extra subroutine
<TDavid> extra subroutines usually mean extra libraries and extra libraries usually affect efficiency
<TDavid> it's like going to the store as the crow flies versus going to the store using roads
<gavster_BRB> Gotcha . .  but you do think, that in a project that is script intensive, the benefits outweigh the cost in overhead?
<TDavid> also i can't help thinking if I need speed badly, why not just avoid the optimizer and php altogether and do it in C or assembler?
<gavster_BRB> True . . .
*** gavster_BRB is now known as gavster
*** JP|hardcorebox has joined #netsurprise
<WillyB> hi JP
<CrEaToR> hi JP
<TDavid> sorry, i realize i am kind of answering your question in riddles
<TDavid> i like the zend optimizer and i think for most uses it is well worth it :)
*** Vivian_HardcoreBox has joined #netsurprise
<WillyB> Hi Vivian
<Vivian_HardcoreBox> hi WillyB
<gavster> Not to worry - nothing wrong with qualifying an answer
<JP|hardcorebox> Hi everyone :-)
<CrEaToR> hi Vivian
<gavster> I be smart enough to figger it out . . 
<Vivian_HardcoreBox> hi all :)
<gavster> lol
<TDavid> but all too often some people think that they can use one thing (not saying you are by any means, of course) to fit all situations. In programming it rarely works that way. One project might be better in java, one in php, one in perl, one in javascript, blah blah blah
<gavster> Cool
<TDavid> some programs work best using a combination of the aforementioned
<gavster> Well, that much I've found out for sure - there are certainly situations that require many solutions to be glued together
<TDavid> cookies are another tool and i like to use them personally for letting users keep track of things without eating up extra i/o
<gavster> Take my current project - I'm actually using, access, perl, php, and mysql in combination . . . 
<gavster> So I hear ya there . . . .
<gavster> Good point - I'm curious though, how do you handle surfers who don't allow cookies?
<TDavid> offer them the option to store using i/o
<gavster> Gotcha
<gavster> It seems like a delicate balance sometimes - but as a developer, I find cookies to be nearly indespensible . . 
<TDavid> sometimes clients don't like the idea of telling the surfer everything that's going on, and that can be a bit trickier when developing
<gavster> Exactly . . . .
<TDavid> but the bottom line is if I surf your site will it work without cookies and without javascript?
<TDavid> because both of those items can be turned of very easily
<TDavid> and more surfers are getting savvy about their uses
<gavster> I tend to try and develop sites so that it will work without those two things, and just has extra functionality when those options are enabled . . . .
<TDavid> that is wise :)
<gavster> Well, I'd love to sit here all day and jaw, but it's back to the salt mines with me . . .. 
<WillyB> see ya gavster
<tia> see ya later Gav :)
<gavster> Thanks for the discussion/info, TDavid . . .   =0)
<CrEaToR> bye gavster
<TDavid> in about 15 minutes it will be the same with me hehe
<WillyB> Interesting stuff you had on your mind ;)
<gavster> Bye-bye, all . . . 
<TDavid> i was 10 minutes late, i'll go 10 minutes over hehe
*** gavster has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<WillyB> TD, what does the /path part of the setcookie do?
<TDavid> now saying all this about cookies, i have kind of violated rule #4 for the code illustration i used hehe
<WillyB> Is that the path on the surfers computer where the cookie gets stored?
<TDavid> no the server tahat sets
<TDavid> er that sets
<TDavid> you can set a cookie that is retrievable from any directory on the domain or only from a specific place for even tighter security
<WillyB> ok, so that's why there is /path, domain.com  it there.. that's what had me confused :)
*** tia has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<TDavid> as gavster mentioned above, use cookies as a tool for saving user custom settings or enhancing the system
<WillyB> so if I just wanted to retreive it from www.dom.com/dir1/file.php  I use the path variable
<TDavid> just understand that if you depend on them that the system will be somewhat flawed to start out with
<TDavid> by default the directory you set from is the only directory you can retrieve from
<TDavid> you need to put in the / to make it all
<TDavid> or a specific root path to make other directories in the hierarchy be able to retrieve the cookies
<WillyB> ok, I c
<TDavid> kind of like htaccess
<TDavid> everything below affected, everything above not
<WillyB> recursive
<WillyB> ok
<TDavid> yeah. 99% of the time i just set from script directory which is almost always a secured place
<TDavid> you can also add the "secure" flag and make sure a secure server is being set and retrieved
<WillyB> a cookie set in a members dir will work for anything in the members area
<WillyB> as long as they are folders in that dir
<WillyB> folders = dir visaversa
<TDavid> no, it will only work in the members folder unless you set the path to that directory
<TDavid> then all the directories beneath will be included
<WillyB> right., that's what I meant :)
<TDavid> ahh, ok :)
<WillyB> I should be able to get the homework done for friday for the last two lessons.. I hope! hahaha
<TDavid> the lessons are admittedly getting a little bit harder
<WillyB> well, they should imo
<TDavid> but i guess that's the idea ... get through week 16 and do every lesson and understand what you are doing and you'll be able to code some pretty cool things :)
<Jaggi> bye
*** Jaggi has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<WillyB> putting all the stuff together there are a lot of concepts to incorperate :)
<WillyB> and there are more and more to come! :))
<TDavid> yes there are, i sometimes wonder if 16 weeks is really enough, but much longer than that and people will seriously start losing interest
<TDavid> and I don't want anybody to get discouraged, but i've been doing this nearly 20 years and every DAY practically I'm learning something I didn't know the day before
<WillyB> true
<TDavid> it might be small and somewhat insignificant by itself, but over the long haul it is more and more knowledge
<WillyB> It would be cool to make another 16 week course for after this one.. sorta like a 2nd semester or something
<TDavid> i don't think anybody masters languages like assembler or C .. they are just wayy too indepth ... I don't think anybody masters any programming language. All you can do is get in and do it and if you find a better way, make it better :)
<WillyB> yeah, I've seen how there is as many ways to do something as there are doing it :)
<WillyB> Even the guys who created the lang's don't know all there is to know about them.. but how close are they do you think to knowing it all?
<TDavid> well a design team is as a whole usually knows quite a lot
<TDavid> but no single individual really knows it all that i've met
*** Chris has joined #netsurprise
<TDavid> you might get one guy who is a genius at parsers
<TDavid> then another guy who is the algorithm guy
<TDavid> another guys is the I/O guy
<TDavid> or gal mind you
<TDavid> some very intelligent female programmers, i don't want to leave them out :)
<WillyB> I see.. like a graphics guy and an html guy for a website
<TDavid> absolutely
<WillyB> hehehe... no! Don't forget the women!  :)
<TDavid> then you have the network server admin PERSON hehe
<TDavid> the hardware guru
<WillyB> Like MissGwendolyn hehehe
<WillyB> Yeah!  The one who makes the 150 an hour hehehe
<TDavid> boy it is amazing if you find one person who just knows a LITTLE bit about all those things in addition to specializing in their one field
*** PornDaddy has joined #netsurprise
<MissGwendolyn> LOL Far from it WillyB!
<MissGwendolyn> I'm lucky I can write html without tripping over my own 'feet'
<MissGwendolyn> hello PornDaddy
<TDavid> i think it is important to be up front about your knowledge and to point out to the client that you can't possibly know all the variables
<WillyB> hehehe!  your sites look like you know more than you do then missGwen ;)
<PornDaddy> Helooooooo MG
<TDavid> especially if you are thinking of doing custom programming for others
<PornDaddy> What's up Tdavid :^)
<TDavid> hi porndaddy :)
<PornDaddy> Did you get everything worked out?
<WillyB> Thats a good point TD.. as long as they don't expect you to because others have told them "they" could do it all
<TDavid> let me shoot you a call in a bit here :)
<PornDaddy> sweet
<PornDaddy> wife is on the phone right now
<MissGwendolyn> What's the line WillyB? If you can knock them out with knowledge, baffle them with bullshit? LOL That's how I code
<WillyB> but then you'd have to be prepared to show them 
<WillyB> lmao Gwen!!1
<PornDaddy> <ctrl>C <ctrl>V
<PornDaddy> Ok she's off the phone now
<TDavid> i love working with places that have built in graphics people and html people, then all i have to concentrate on is raw code
<TDavid> kind of like adult netsurprise :)
<WillyB> copy and paste...  what do I win PornDaddy? hehehehe
<PornDaddy> Your an HTML guru now
<PornDaddy> LOL
<WillyB> hahahaha!
<MissGwendolyn> brb need to snag the phone and call the vet
<TDavid> also good server admins are a must ... i love it when they say they are with National Net or Cyberwurx hehe
<WillyB> I like it to TD!  the graphics person make the coder look good and the coder makes the graphics look good on the page
<WillyB> hehehehe  ;)
<TDavid> i won't mention a few <cough> CHEAP</cough> hosts out there that suck 
<PornDaddy> few?????????  LOL
<WillyB> LMAO!
<TDavid> ok, im being nice :)
<TDavid> it's like anything else, you get what you pay for
*** Margie has joined #netsurprise
<WillyB> It's probably the few who are decent.. like free hosts
<PornDaddy> I'm doing hosting on my 486DX4 machines with an uplink of 14.4k
<TDavid> hehe
<WillyB> yep... I liked Rowdy's article a few weeks ago.. you get what you pay for
<CrEaToR> hi Margie
<TDavid> any other questions on cookies or scripting in general anyone, i'm about to retreat to script school 
<WillyB> Remind me not to use your hosting PD hehehe
<Wolfe> hmmmm
<Margie> hi Creator
<WillyB> Wolfe Lives!
<TDavid> i remember when 14.4 was blazing hehe
<WillyB> hi Marge
<PornDaddy> PD hosting only $.99 per month
<WillyB> I don't have any more questions td :)
<Margie> Hi Snikks
<Margie> Hi Willy
<TDavid> i remember thinking tape drives were fast lol
<Wolfe> Tryin to decide what I want on my badge at adult dex ...
<WillyB> lol porndaddy!
<PornDaddy> Hey Margie
<Margie> hi PornDaddy
<PornDaddy> Newlywed
<PornDaddy> Wof
* MissGwendolyn is back
<PornDaddy> wolf
<Wolfe> hehe
<TDavid> how about a wolf with a half-chewed arm in its mouth, wolfe?
<aragorn> willyb 
<WillyB> how about Howler hehehe
<WillyB> what's up aragorn
<aragorn> ALL: ALL@192.168.0.2 : DENY     if i add that to hosts.deny that will ban that ip right ?
<aragorn> i only have entries in hosts.allow
<PornDaddy> should work aragorn
<aragorn> thanks PD
<WillyB> that is your internal network though aragorn
<PornDaddy> your talking about .htaccess right?
<WillyB> it will ban your computer from the network
<WillyB> no PD.. it's the hosts.allow host.deny files on a firewall
<Wolfe> Snikks what are you putting on your badge ???
<PornDaddy> OH ok
<WillyB> 192.168 is a private class C network
<PornDaddy> nevermind
<Wolfe> Hmmm ...
* PornDaddy wiggles back in my corner
<PornDaddy> shit
<aragorn> yeah i know ,, just needed it as an eg. :)
<WillyB> hehehe
<WillyB> ok
<aragorn> so add the ALL: ALL@192.168.0.2 : DENY to hosts.allow ?
<Wolfe> Maybe I'll use a secret code name ... there are just some people who might be there that I wouldn't want to listen to their mouth if they knew I was there 
<WillyB> all you really need in the deny file is ALL: 1.2.3.4  or what ever, you don't need the rest of it
<aragorn> oh so ALL: and ip in the hosts.deny ?
<WillyB> That will deny everything from the ip address you give
<aragorn> k
<WillyB> yep
<MissGwendolyn> I need to go find lunch bbl =)
*** MissGwendolyn has quit IRC (QUIT: User exited)
<WillyB> If you want yourself to be able to ftp in only to your box you put in hosts.deny
<aragorn> cool.  This guy i know is gettin bandwidth burned on him from a addy reloading his page over and over.  And some other weird things are happening.  He just got a call from holland 2 ,, hrmm :)
<WillyB> Ah
<WillyB> that's bad
<Margie> bye A/all
*** Margie has left #netsurprise
<WillyB> I'd keep him out of the whole server
<WillyB> See ya Marge
<aragorn> Well thats what this will do though won't it ?
<aragorn> deny all req's from the ip ?
<WillyB> yes, to every port and service on the machine
<WillyB> I dont think he will even get a ping back from it :)
<aragorn> yeah i figured.  Cause i had to personally add my own local ips to my hosts.allow to even telnet to my box :>
<aragorn> yeah .. YEEHAA :) thats what i like 
<Wolfe> hehe ... I would say it is one of those pic stealers ...
<TDavid> laters all
<aragorn> damn b@st@rds :)
<aragorn> cya TD
<WillyB> I don't have anything in my hosts.allow file
<Wolfe> later TD
Session Close: Tue Oct 31 13:29:51 2000